WOZA Podcast Two - The challenges women in law face today

The second episode, hosted by Director Brigitta Mangale unpacks the challenges women in law face today. Brigitta is joined by panellists Seehaam Samaai, (Director Women's Legal Centre), Magistrate Anthea Ramos (Senior Magistrate), along with Phetheni Nkuna (CDH Director: Executive Management), and Subashnee Moodley (Managing Director and Chair at Attorneys Livingston Leandy Inc). They share their perspectives on empowering women in law. Discover their initiatives for access to justice, overcoming challenges, and achieving work-life balance. Gain valuable insights on the impact of networks, gender-based discrimination, and driving change.

Transcript

Brigitta Mangale: Hello everyone, and welcome to the CDH Conversations podcast channel. I'm Brigitta Mangale, a Director in CDH’s Pro Bono and Human Rights practice. This year marks 100 years of woman in law and in further celebration thereof CDH is proud to partner with Woman in Law, South Africa (WOZA) to  bring you a series of conversations from woman who are leaders in their field, and who are dedicated to the empowerment and support of women in law.

In this second episode of this series collaboration, I have the honour and pleasure of facilitating a conversation among four extraordinary woman in the legal field.

My first guest is Magistrate Anthea Ramos. After having served articles and worked as an attorney and Justice Centre Executive for Legal Aid South Africa, Magistrate Ramos ascended to the bench as a magistrate in Kuilsriver in July 2010. In November 2013, she was appointed as a senior magistrate for the Kuilsriver subcluster on 1 May 2017, she was appointed as a senior magistrate and subcluster head for the Kuilsriver subcluster. She acted as a regional magistrate in Strand Regional Court from October 2019 until 15 December 2021 and was permanently appointed to the position on 1 May 2023.

She currently serves as regional magistrate at Wynberg Regional Court. She also acted as a judge in the Free State Division of the High Court for one term during 2022. She has co-ordinated social outreach projects under the auspices of the South African chapter of the International Association of Women Judges, which includes mentorship of female law students, human trafficking awareness, family dialogues, criminal justice education to learners at schools, and GBV awareness in communities.

She's particularly passionate about the development of female law students and ensuring the administration of justice to the public, which she serves. She is presently completing her master's degree at the University of the Western Cape. Magistrate Ramos, hello to you and thank you very much for joining us.

Anthea Ramos: Thank you very much. Brigitta thank you for that very warm and detailed introduction.

Brigitta Mangale: Great. My next guest Seehaam Samaai is a feminist lawyer and activist and has been a practicing attorney since 2001. She's the director of the Women's Legal Centre and African Feminist Legal Centre that advances women's rights and equality through strategic litigation, advocacy, education, advice and training. She is a long-serving board member and chairperson of Lawyers for Human Rights and also serves as chairperson of the South African Women Lawyers Association within the Western Cape. Seehaam has a passion for women's rights, land justice and community activism. Seehaam, a very warm welcome to you and thank you for joining us.

Seehaam Samaai: Thank you. Thank you for having the Women's Legal Centre.

Brigitta Mangale: My third guest is Subashnee Moodley. Subashnee is the current managing director and chair of law firm Livingston, Leandy Incorporated. Subashnee is a member of the Black Lawyers Association and the Women's Property Network. She's also an active member of the KwaZulu-Natal chapter of the South African Institute of Black Property Practitioners, where she serves on the national board and as the current co-chair of the KwaZulu-Natal chapter. In addition, Subashnee is a director of the WOZA Leadership Academy and is actively involved in WOZA. Hello to you Subashnee, and thank you for joining us.

Subashnee Moodley: Hello Brigitta. And thank you for having me on this panel discussion.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you, Subashnee. And last, but certainly not least, Phetheni Nkuna, a Director in CDH’s Employment practice and a member of CDH’s executive management team. Phetheni has represented clients, both employers and employees, across different industries in various disputes, ranging from dismissal related to misconduct, incapacity and operational requirements, restraints of trade, unfair labour practice and employment equity. Phetheni also provides advisory and strategic support to clients and has conducted training on different aspects of conflict management and dispute resolution. Hello to you Phetheni, and thank you for joining us.

Phetheni Nkuna: Good afternoon. Thank you for having me.

Brigitta Mangale: Now, to our listeners, you will have heard me say at the beginning of this podcast that I'm joined by four extraordinary women. Having listened to their bios, I'm sure you'll now agree – I can't wait to get this conversation started. My first question is to you Magistrate Ramos: Often when there are programmes run for diversity and inclusion, or on woman in the profession, we focus on legal practitioners and judges in the superior courts. And we sometimes forget about academics and, in your case, magistrates. Please would you share with us your journey from being a graduate to a magistrate.

Anthea Ramos: Thank you once again, Brigitta. I'm really honoured to participate in this podcast to share my experience. And I really am honoured to be sharing the space with these phenomenal women. So, I've been asked to share my experience, and I recently had an opportunity to reflect on my career. I want to share with you that I just recently turned 50, and it really is a time and space when one reflects on what you've achieved career and life wise. And I've also recently had a discussion with one of my female law students, where I shared my journey with her and I intimated to her that even given the chance, I do not think I would change the path and the journey I've taken. It’s not always been a very easy journey, I must say.

I've been in the profession for almost 25 years now, and I think all of you will agree the legal profession is not always the most glamorous space to find oneself in, but I do feel that my chosen profession, I don't regard it as a job, I often tell mentees that when you enter the profession, and particularly the magistracy, you need to view your work there as a calling more than anything else.

So, to start the journey, I started as a very young, legal professional at the age of 23 years old after having graduated from UWC [University of the Western Cape]. I was fortunate enough to gain articles at UCT [University of Cape Town] Legal Aid, which was based in Atlantis, and at the time, I was living there. So it was a space where I was working and living – which wasn’t always very conducive, because you'd have neighbours come and knock on your door asking for legal advice. At the time I predominantly worked with the criminal courts and we did some family law. And the first years in the profession, spending that time with Legal Aid really provided a solid foundation for my development as a legal professional. I always say this to my mentees as well, that Legal Aid is a brilliant training ground for entering the profession – the experienced one gains there is invaluable. After having served articles. I was admitted, I think in the year 2000, and I continued working at the Legal Aid office.

I then moved to the Athlone office and before being admitted as an attorney, I had a short stint as a prosecutor, I worked at the Cape Town Magistrate’s Court. I very quickly discovered that prosecution was not for me, my passion and my heart did not lie there. I really found myself thriving much better within the defence system being an attorney. So I spent my time at Legal Aid. I thoroughly enjoyed my stint the working the regional courts.

I was then promoted to Justice Centre Executive and I headed up an office in Vredendal for about two years. Not long after that, I moved back down to Cape Town and was responsible for the Cape Town Justice Centre, which was a big office; there was in excess of 90 staff members, and I essentially managed candidate attorneys and attorneys, paralegals and admin staff. My period there was very enriching. During that time, my management skills were really honed, and I didn't do that much litigation, I must add, but at the time, your focus would predominantly be providing the services to the indigent people and managing the system, as it were.

Having spent about another five years there, I decided that it was time to perhaps try my hand at the bench. And I think it was a two-fold reason, you know, the Legal Aid space was similar to corporate and the demands on your time were very, very high. And I thought perhaps the bench would provide me with a better platform to kind of juggle both tasks. So in 2010, I was appointed as a magistrate at the Kuilsriver Magistrates’ Court. I also thoroughly enjoyed that part of the journey. But it was something totally new to embark on; approaching the profession from the other side as it were.

I worked as a magistrate for three years and when the senior magistrate had to retire, they obviously looked for somebody to fill his shoes. At the time, I was the most junior in the office in the subcluster as well, but because of my experience with Legal Aid management, they actually took a chance on me and I was then appointed as the senior magistrate for the Kuilsriver subcluster. At that time, I once again had to fill the shoes of an older man who did that job before me. So, you walk in there the most junior, the young female of colour, having to prove yourself to your subordinates and everyone around you that you actually are competent enough to do the job. I really thrived during that time, I enjoyed the work, I managed to get the team cohesion going and it all history from there.

From there I was fortunate enough to be asked to act at the Regional Court in Strand. Again, I was unsure of the challenge and decided to take the challenge and to see what it would be like to preside in regional court. I worked there then for two and a half years. From there I was again fortunate enough, the period between 2020 and 2022 was actually very significant for me, I had many opportunities career wise. So after the Strand stint, I was asked to come and act at the Bloemfontein High Court. I just had faith in myself and decided to embrace the opportunity and went off to Bloemfontein to go and act as a judge over there.

I then came back home to the Western Cape, and was then appointed as a regional magistrate at the Wynberg Regional Court, which is where I currently am positioned. So looking back, the path has been long and winding, but really fulfilling and again, when one reflects on where you've been, I have a sense of achievement, and I look forward to progressing much further as a woman in this space. As part of this journey, I've always had students attending my courts and watching what we’re doing, and learning from the experience.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you very much for sharing Magistrate Ramos. My second question is directed at you Seehaam. This question is two-pronged. As the chairperson of the South African Women Lawyers Association in the Western Cape and as director of the Women's Legal Centre, you really are at the coalface of the challenges women face, not only in the legal profession, but in everyday life. What initiatives do you have in place to empower woman firstly, in the profession, and then from a Women's Legal Centre perspective, for a woman to make access to justice a lived reality?

Seehaam Samaai: For us as the South African Women Lawyers [Association], we employ various initiatives, which is, for me, I've seen over the past 20 years, mentorship and networking programmes which pair younger women with experienced women lawyers, to be able to provide guidance, support and opportunities for career advancement. Networking events can also facilitate connections and create supportive communities. And I'll speak a bit more about that maybe at the end around the importance of creating a supportive network. Also leadership development, specifically tailored to women in the legal profession. And this includes, for example, seminars for skills development, but we need to be conscious that women's broader leadership trajectory is different from males. And so you can find somebody who will be, for example, over the age of 50, but would only have started with their particular career in the late 30s. And so we need to be able to be conscious around that.

In addition to that, very importantly, is something which the Women's Legal Centre in particular looks at, which is advocacy and policy initiatives. And this is where we need to work with other organisations to be able to involve them in addressing the pay gap, promoting – very, very important – mental health, work-life balance, and also how to combat gender-based violence, including gender biases and discrimination. Which means that we need to be active within policy initiatives within government, within Parliament, within the judiciary, to be able to ensure that we promote, I would say, proper mental health support and work-life balance.

And so what does that look like for women? We need to be implemented, what we've seen during lockdown, which is that flexible work arrangements for women allows them to do a lot, you know, within a remote setting, and so flexible work hours, parental leave policies to support women in managing their personal and professional responsibilities effectively. And then training and skills – I cannot emphasize enough that we need to provide skills training, and build the knowledge of women in the law, which includes workshops on negotiation skills, technological advancement ­– in our legal field it’s so so important. You know, what's the new cyber technology, etc. and how can we ensure that young women and even women broadly move into the digital age.

And so from the Women's Legal Centre's [WLC] perspective, how do we ensure this access to justice? We provide free legal services to women to offer them legal representation, and to ensure equal access to justice, regardless of their financial means. So that's really important to the WLC. Also, we conduct community outreach programmes to educate women about their rights, raise awareness of violence against women, provide information on available legal resources and support systems.

Strategic advocacy is very important, as I've indicated, where we engage on policy advocacy, and law reform initiatives to address systemic barriers that prevent women from accessing justice. So this can involve a range of issues, which is: legislative changes; raising awareness through the court systems, even about gender inequalities within the legal system; and also changing discriminatory practices. But for the Women's Legal Centre, as well as the South African Women Lawyers Association [SAWLA], collaboration in partnership cannot be overemphasized. We collaborate with government agencies, with community stakeholders, to pull resources and to share expertise, and also to develop strategies for addressing women's legal needs.

And then finally, I mean, we have these various initiatives that we implement, both by SAWLA and the Women's Legal Centre, it's different, but our call is that we need to be able to ensure that we have women's voices heard, both in their home, in their community, in their work, and also within the legal spaces. Also, finally, just one, data collection, I think it's important that we need research, we need processes to be based on proper data collection. And so we also conduct research and collect data on issues affecting women in the justice system, which can help with gaps and evidence-based policy recommendations. And we also measure the impacts of various interventions that Government has brought. The Women's Legal Centre is what we use strategic litigation movement lawyering, which they also call active lawyering, to be able to ensure the community's voices are heard within the legal system. I hope that that will keep some form of comprehensive idea of both what is required and what we do within the sector.

Brigitta Mangale: It certainly does Seehaam. Thank you so much for sharing. I certainly was nodding along, as you were speaking, you mentioned so many important issues that require attention and intervention. But the two things that stuck out for me based on what you've just said, the one is the acknowledgement that as far as the legal field is concerned, and in fact, there's an argument to be made that this applies more broadly, there must be an acknowledgement that a man and a woman's path in their career trajectory is different. And turning away from those differences, doesn't help to resolve the problem. So, it was comforting to hear that as far as supporting challenges faced in the legal profession, but of course, supporting the everyday woman and the communities you serve, there's a determination from the Women's Legal Centre to be responding in a meaningful way.

The other thing you mentioned that really stuck out for me was the importance of a network and the importance of collaboration. On that point, I want to then ask my next question to Subashnee, as a WOZA director, you no doubt have developed a large network of woman lawyers from various sectors, being a practitioner yourself, what are some of the commonly raised challenges that women face in the private sector?

Subashnee Moodley: Thanks, Brigitta. I think I want to start with the lack of flexibility. Now for a long time, this has remained a challenge, and with the onset of COVID and the hybrid work structure, I think this has eased to an extent, but not completely. And I think it's very important for organisations and for firms to allow flexibility, particularly for women lawyers, who may from time to time need such flexibility. And it is just so important, because it then allows us to be successful women lawyers, and still be available, if you have a sick child, for example. Because I think we've learned over time and we've learned over COVID that it is possible to have that flexibility and still be productive. So I think the flexibility is a big challenge and it's one that although it may have eased off is still very present.

Another challenge, I think is the lack of gender parity and diversity in the boardroom. It's very common to find a significant cohort of women in middle management positions, but women do not feature as they should, on various excos and at board level. Now, there are several organisations that drive the concept of having at least 30% of the board comprising women – and that's just to start off with. And you have organisations such as Business Engage in the 30% club, and there’s the legislation that dictates that and drives female appointments and ownership, such as your triple BEE, and employment equity. So I think it's important as responsible organisations, that we adhere to this, and it's a challenge that we need to overcome, we accept that it's not going to happen overnight. But it's also good to see that a lot of firms and organisations are making this now a strategic imperative, which is actually what we want and what we need. And hopefully, you know, going into the future, we see more transformation in this regard and see a gender-neutral boardroom that's diverse also in terms of age.

Another challenge that is becoming more and more common these days is women suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. It's a huge challenge, particularly in private practice, very often emanating from bullying. I read an article in fact, it was just last week, and although it was based on Australian statistics, it was absolutely interesting. It indicated that 73% of female and 50% of male law professionals were victims of bullying. And we know that post-traumatic stress disorder impacts a person so badly in terms of their output, their overall performance, their growth, and of course, their personal lives. So these Brigitta, are some of the challenges that we still see and hear of on a daily basis.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you, Subashnee. You've mentioned and highlighted some important challenges, certainly, which have come about, at least in part, as a consequence of gender-based discrimination. I think it's at this point that it would be helpful to hear from the employment lawyer in the room. Phetheni, in your experience, how does harassment and gender-based discrimination impact the experiences of women in law?

Phetheni Nkuna: That is quite a loaded question, and the reason why I say this is because of the research that has gone into investigating, amongst other things, what causes women to leave. The data is quite all-encompassing; there’s little that has been done with a specific focus on women in law. There are bits and pieces here that are happening, but there’s still quite a lot to be done. But so far, the research that is available is quite helpful, because it appears that this ill does not discriminate; is across different sectors, different professions, it happens. And, despite the work that has been done by organisations such as the ILO [International Labour Organization] the Commission for Employment Equity in South Africa, as always other agencies, we still have a problem.

Some of the highlighted impacts of harassment and gender-based discrimination include an impact on career advancement –  not being promoted, or being afforded opportunities that would help you grow or develop your career, such as training. And in worst cases, women have ended up having to leave. We've heard of some of the stories that have happened and it's not limited to practice, it's also in corporate, in-house, we have had woman who leave because of harassment and gender-based discrimination.

Secondly, there's also been a spotlight on the impact that it would have on your working conditions. Hostility. Which brings me to the point that Subashnee was talking about: the post-traumatic stress disorder. Unfortunately we see a lot of woman, even in this profession, particularly suffering from mental health issues, stress, anxiety, depression, post-traumatic stress disorder from the bullying, from the harassment. Even the discrimination in whatever format or form it manifests itself, it does result in serious mental health conditions.

And then thirdly, the gender pay gap. Unfortunately, the gap is still wide. In the US, it's reported that as at 2023, woman earn 77 cents for every dollar that's earned by a man. And this is 20 years later, in 1996, women were earning 75 cents. In South Africa, StatsSA, as recently as June, has come out and said, well, South Africa's pay gap, women are still earning above 30% less than men. And we have the World Economic Forum reporting that South Africa is ranked 111 out of 146 countries in respect of pay parity. So there's still a lot of work that needs to be done to minimise, or to even get rid of, this gap that we see between men and women.

One of the other issues that has been highlighted is occupational segregation. And specifically in the legal field, you'll find that women find themselves being channelled into specific areas of law because that is what is considered appropriate for them. This has been one of the impacts or consequences of harassment and discrimination, being secluded, where there is opportunity merely because you are a female practicing law, and to a very large extent, this has ultimately contributed to the widening pay gap. Because if you are not exposed or afforded opportunities to practice in different areas of the law, that impacts your ability to improve your earnings.

Finally, what has also been mentioned earlier is the high attrition rate of women because of harassment and discrimination. We see a lot of women exiting, not just practice, not just roles as in-house counsel, exiting the profession completely. That impacts the future of women in this profession, succession planning, who are we going to pass the baton on to if woman are deciding, “Listen, I can’t do this anymore, it's better for me to just go for a career change, find something not related to law.”

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you very much, Phetheni. You and Subashnee have both shared some important food for thought as far as parity is concerned. And you've now also mentioned the attrition rate. I think it would be interesting to hear from Magistrate Ramos what the position is in the magistracy. Statistics suggest that the magistracy comes out strong in advancing woman to its bench in the magistrates’ and regional courts and has achieved about 50%, parity. Magistrate Ramos, what programmes do you have in place to make the magistracy more attractive to young legal professionals?

Anthea Ramos: Thank you, Brigitta. That's a wonderful question. And yes, indeed, I must agree with you that we have made significant strides in the appointment of women to all levels of the judiciary, from the lower courts to right up to the high courts. And even more significantly, if you will recall, we recently had the appointment of Deputy Chief Justice Mandisa Maya, which was a first for the country. And we are hoping that once the Chief Justice steps down for the end of his term, she would be the natural successor and that would be another first for South Africa, appointing a female Chief Justice. But having said that, I must agree that the judiciary has become an attractive career choice for many women.

And to this end, I'm really pleased to share with you the programme that we have in place within the South African chapter of the International Association of Women Judges. As early as 2015 already, we launched a programme called the Female Law Students Mentorship Programme. As part of this programme we select various law students from the various universities countrywide, and we match them up with a mentor. These mentors are predominantly magistrates. We have judges on our panels. We even have attorneys and prosecutors. And as part of the programme, the mentee, as we call them, are matched with a mentor for a period of 12 months. The programme requires them to have regular interactions, so it's one-on-one discussions with regards to anything that may come, be it career path choices, be it legal issues, be it how they will go about drafting where they will embark on the career, or simple things such as interpersonal skills or preparation for interviews.

The biggest part of the programme is that they come to the courts or to the attorney's office and actually observe how the practical application of the law works. So they will sit, ideally for a period of 40 hours for the year, which is the minimum requirement, where they partner with the magistrate or the judge, and go to court with them, it in court and observe, and  after the court appearances, there is a discussion with regards to what happened.

We found that this programme is super beneficial. We’ve had phenomenal feedback from the students. We’ve mentored probably close to 1,000 students already through the years in the various provinces. So it is one of the programmes we are very proud of. It is one of our flagship projects, and it has just been going from strength to strength. But I think the most significant part is that the value that it gives to students by the time they’ve walked the path through that programme, they are empowered and skilled to enter into the legal space, confident and knowing what they're doing.

I'm aware of the aspirant judges programme, where magistrates are also being mentored now by judges and being taken through a programme to prepare themselves for the for the high courts. So there are many programmes afloat which are there to empower and develop particularly female law students and also magistrates in the judiciary.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you very much for sharing, Magistrate Ramos. Subashnee, my question to you is one of policy. So, policies and focused strategic imperatives can be adopted and implemented to deal with some of the challenges that women in law face. Who should be driving this and what would you say to women who face these daily challenges?

Subashnee Moodley: Brigitta, I think we need the boards of directors and excos of firms and organisations to drive change within their organisations. It must also be meaningful change so that the environment is one that is inclusive and unbiased. And when we speak about bias, we speak about conscious and unconscious bias. I think one of the key focus areas for management is to rather assess output and the value add that women provide in an organisation, as opposed to the old school view of hours seen at the office. I also think it's very important to have zero tolerance policies for bullying and harassment and that these need to be dealt with quickly, as soon as they arrive.

It is just as important to have a mentorship programme, and I know Seehaam also touched on that, for younger professionals coming into the profession as well as women looking to go into leadership positions. There is so much value to be had in having a good successful mentorship programme.

I also think that acknowledging and creating a platform to provide mental health support is important and there are options that allow us to do that on a fairly inexpensive basis, such as employee assistance programmes and wellness days.

To the women who face these daily challenges, I would say, do not give up on your careers – and we see women giving up very quickly on their careers, they need to build themselves, they need to face these challenges and follow the escalation processes of reporting issues that need to be reported. What I think is important is that in discussing the challenges with management, it is important that we as women, discuss them with a view of resolving the issues and moving forward successfully in our career.

I think overall we are making good strides and it will take us time to get there. All these challenges are not going to go away overnight. But I think with a collaboration of the magistrates, the judiciary, active legal practice council, firms, academia the Bar Council, people collaborating, I think we can keep women in the profession irrespective of which sector of the profession they go into. And I think we could do it quite successfully.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you, Subashnee. You mentioned the importance of mentorship and collaboration and it's made me want to revisit the importance of a good network and Seehaam, I know this is something that you touched on when you shared your thoughts earlier. But let's talk about something that is well known, certainly among us as women in the legal profession, this is often referred to as a boys’ club, and we know all too well that deals are often done on the golf course. How do women play this game? In your experience, how do women get the full value of their networks?

Seehaam Samaai: From my side, I mean, women absolutely see the value of belonging to a network, just like men do, but we need to be able to understand what the normative values within that network are, and what does it look like. The purpose for women, what we've done, is to ensure that there are opportunities for professional development, mentorship, collaboration and support. And so we call it ‘safe spaces’. Men have had more access to powerful networks because of the old boys’ club, which has contributed to their success. And so for us, some people might decide that we work differently, but I'm saying that there needs to be safe spaces for women to be able to ensure that that development also happens.

And so to overcome this imbalance, women need to actively build their own networks and create spaces where we can support and empower each other. But what I have seen within the profession, I always say that power doesn't give, power needs to be taken, and so it's important that those men networks need to be opened up for women. And so this can involve joining professional organisations like the South African Women Lawyers [Association], like the Black Lawyers Association, like the National Association of Democratic Lawyers, who are all progressive organisations, you know, pushing for transformation within the sector. And so we need to network at conferences and events, participate, and also seek different mentorship from successful women in the field.

So it's important for women to advocate for themselves, and their accomplishments. Which is why I support an organisation like WOZA, because what they have done is we now celebrate ourselves within our lifetime, and also our accomplishments. And we need to be proud of our skills and we need to showcase it. We must showcase our expertise, our achievements, so that we can build or establish credibility and make valuable connections within the industry. So it's also about seeking opportunities to network and ensure that voices and contributions are heard and recognised. And that is why, I indicate again, an organisation like WOZA is important to be able to ensure that we are heard through our skills and through our expertise.

There's also been a growing recognition of the importance of inclusion in the workplace, and diversity. And organisations are actively working to create more equitable networks and opportunities for women in different forms. You have the Law Society of South Africa having women networks and different structures, and it's important that we get involved and connect. It's important for women also to take advantage of different initiatives and engage with networks that are supportive and inclusive.

So, although there are many, many challenges and barriers, I would say we can beat the old boys’ club and make it an exclusive one based on equality, non-sexism, non-racialism, and by building these new networks, which support each other and actively pursue opportunities for growth and advancement in the profession, we can beat it. We can build differently, we can take that which is good and to be able to build a network, like I said, which is transformative and equitable.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you very much indeed. I think you said power doesn't give, power must be taken. I'm putting that on a t shirt immediately after this podcast. Thank you so much for sharing.

I want to end the conversation with a particular focus on the young women listening to the podcast and the young women who are thinking of entering the legal field or who are just beginning their legal career. I certainly know that when I started, work-life balance and trying to achieve that was something that I really, really struggled with. Phetheni, how do work-life balance challenges affect women in the legal profession?

Phetheni Nkuna: Let me start here. Recent research has advocated for a move to focus beyond what was the traditional definition of the concept and it was quite limited to work and motherhood. So, the first time you'd have a discussion about work-life balance is if, by you election as a woman, because I'm very cognizant that not everyone wants to get married or have a child, but traditionally the conversation would only start when you get married, if you don't want to get married, when you have a child. So now the advocacy is to look beyond that and consider what other areas of a person's life are important, that actually ultimately affect their decision to leave either because of lower satisfaction, or because it just simply is not working.

So now the move is to look at a much wider focus of this concept. Look at things such as leisure, self-development, I mean something as simple as me being able to fit a gym session during my work day, is very important. And also community membership. You know, does my workload allow me an opportunity to participate in other relationships, social relationships that are equally as important to me? Such as being a member of your local social club or being able to even go to church. So that our conversation that's happening around that, because the realisation has been that it's not just a conversation that should start when you are at motherhood level, it needs to start as soon as you actually enter the profession. Which contributes to retention because if my work to live is more aligned and allows me to create better links outside of the work space, then research has shown that you are more inclined to stay, which benefits or counters attrition, turnover etc.

Now on to the specific impact of work-life balance on women in the legal profession. Some of the reported consequences of not having a balanced work-life relationship or working environment has been that it ultimately impacts the decisions that you make about whether or not you want to stay in the profession, whether or not you're actually looking for an entire career change. Because, ultimately, with those conflicting relationships, you know, different relationships compete for different things, some compete for behaviour. Believe it or not, I read an article that says the level of focus that you need to have when you're doing legal research is not necessarily a life skill you should be applying in all your other relationships. You've probably had a discussion with someone who says, “But why are you interrogating me? Why are you cross examining me in a social context?” So it's been reported that something like that can actually affect your relationships.

Secondly, the higher the balance, and obviously this involves negotiation and getting an understanding with your superior with your co-workers, the higher the balance, the higher the satisfaction, which then leads to higher retention rates. We will be able to retain more females in the profession, which is a very good thing for the future of the profession.

Thirdly, I've already mentioned that women are reported to be leaving at very alarming rates, leaving the profession. There is a specific focus of research around what else can be done to ensure that women at the different stages of their lives are working towards some sort of a balance and that that is supported.

Fourthly, flexible work arrangements. Early in the conversation and it was acknowledged that in the advent of COVID, we've embraced flexible working, remote working. The downside of it, unfortunately, is some of the reports or some of the data that has been collated since COVID, is that women end up being prejudiced insofar as promotion is concerned. Not being allocated to the ‘nice’ work as you would have, because if you’re spending time away, you are not at the face of the networking, you're not at the face of the discussions. So whilst there is advocacy for flexible work arrangements, there's also a counter argument that says that you need to be present in order for you to pick up on the nice work, in order for you to be the first point of call when good work does come – in even for your own evaluation for either promotion or even a salary increase. It was quite disappointing to read that that's actually happening despite this being a mechanism to try and alleviate the pressure on women.

And then finally, burnout. Unfortunately, burnout doesn't just impact your ability to do your work. It also impacts your ability to be present in all other relationships that are important in your life outside of work. I came across a post in I think it was two weeks ago that read that, at the end of the day, the only people who will remember how busy you were are your children, your partner, your family and your friends. And with burnout you actually will not even be present for your family. So that is quite a serious, serious, serious impact. And some of the alarming data shows that in certain instances, women don't recover from the impact of burnout, they actually take the step back because you are forced to take a step back and they never returned to a profession. So this is quite serious.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you very much Phetheni. Again, some really, really helpful guidance and some powerful insights there from you. Much appreciated. You've all shared valuable insights today, for which I really thank you. As we close I’m mindful, as I said, that there will be young woman listening who are at the beginning stages of their legal career or who have aspirations of joining the legal field. In just a few words, what words of encouragement and empowerment can you share with them to keep in mind as they carve out a space for themselves in this field, Seehaam?

Seehaam Samaai: Can I just say that we need to be able to build strong professional relationships. They need to build their networks with colleagues from universities, you know, into the profession, both within and outside of your organisation, and cultivate relationships with your peers and your senior professionals as well as clients and these connections can open doors to opportunities as well as broaden your perspective. Thank you.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you, Seehaam. Subashnee?

Subashnee Moodley: Thanks Brigitta. There are opportunities out there for women. It's about being present in the moment, being ambitious, being hungry for success and confidently grabbing opportunities. And the best way to grab those opportunities is to showcase your skillset, the quality of your work, and the positive impact that you can make, not just within your team, but within your organisation. And a bit of advice is that the profession requires us to evolve and adapt constantly. So it's something that women must continue to do.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you, Subashnee. Phetheni?

Phetheni Nkuna: From my end, I recently read something that stood out for me and I think it would be very powerful for another woman that to hear this, that this is not a practice or a rehearsal life this is your one life. You are worthy. You deserve exactly what you want, what you desire. Ensure that you empower yourself, be ready. When opportunity comes, let it find you ready. If you don't have the opportunity, prepare yourself. Preparation also creates opportunity. If you want the degree, go for it. If you want the position, be willing and ready to put in the work. You are exactly where you need to be and you will be exactly where you want to be.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you, Phetheni. Magistrate Ramos?

Anthea Ramos: Thank you Brigitta. As you've heard in my previous segment, I'm very passionate about mentorship. So I think it's important that we embrace each other as women in the profession, and we take hands and pull each other up rather than pull down. And finally, that we pay it forward. Whatever we've learned we pay it forward and that women work hard, always be prepared, and give your best with confidence.

Brigitta Mangale: Thank you Magistrate Ramos. And I thank you all again for your contributions. CDH is dedicated to playing its part in the empowerment of not only woman in the legal field, but more broadly woman and girl children in South Africa. We look forward to continuing the series and further conversations to not only identify the challenges still faced, but to meaningfully explore the ways in which our firm and lawyers genuinely can take an active role in confronting and resolving these challenges.